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| Inconsistencies in character statements and inconsistencies in fans power scaling | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 4 2018, 11:01 PM (2,493 Views) | |
| superperfectnerd | Jan 6 2018, 10:11 PM Post #16 |
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Yes and in that one off movie we were supposed to think "woooow a new level of power" and then Vegetto was brought back into Super and Kefla was manhandling ssjg Goku in base no less and we're meant to think "woooow potara fusion" again. Saiyans in base being at god level appears to not be a thing anymore based on the most recent events. Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 6 2018, 10:12 PM.
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| + Pyrus | Jan 6 2018, 10:15 PM Post #17 |
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Was that only in the movie? I thought it was in the anime as well. |
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| Saiyan36 | Jan 6 2018, 10:53 PM Post #18 |
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Spot on. That what has created massive confusion among fans. I was lost in the forest too for a while, i admit. |
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| superperfectnerd | Jan 6 2018, 11:28 PM Post #19 |
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It was in the anime but the anime is just a retelling of the movie with no further input from Toriyama, it's just going to do things the same even if the new stuff Toriyama has written ignore the events he wrote for a one off movie. |
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| Dagon | Jan 7 2018, 12:15 AM Post #20 |
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First let's just all remember that the anime and manga follow different continuities. You can't compare them as if they are the same canon; they're not. Everyone should treat them as separate beasts because that's what they are. That said, the instance you're speaking of where Goku used SSJG against Trunks in the manga was that Goku briefly turned SSJG in an instant to kick Trunks to beat him. Beerus asked whis "He used the God form didn't he?" Whis confirmed saying "That was quite childish of him." So no, Goku did not amp SSJ3 with god power, he turned SSJG for a moment.
Are you referring to early in the ToP when SSJ2 Goku fought SSJ2 Caulifla before Kale wrecked the stage on her rampage? Well, all it means is that Goku was holding back. Goku would have used full effort in their rematch after the Jiren fight. Not evidence of two pools of ki with one amping the other, just Goku using more effort is all. In your first sentence are you referring to Cabba and the other U6 Saiyans? Well, they follow a different evolutionary path. Their entire culture is different. Maybe base Goku not being at god level can apply to the manga but that's just not the case for the anime. They simply follow different power scales. The fault is mine for not illustrating my point in enough detail so as to not be misunderstood. Red and Blue forms are the only forms with God ki in my interpretation, yes. When Goku first gained SSJG with the ritual, his body adapted to that power level. After losing the god form, his body retained a kind of "muscle memory" in a way that increased his mortal power level to that of his SSJG level. Initially his body could only maintain that power level in SSJ form, but with Whis' training his base form surpassed that level. This is confirmed in the RoF arc when Krillin said the fight between base Goku and 4th form Freeza was more terrifying than when Goku fought Beerus. When Goku lost he god form and he turned SSJ, Beerus confirmed his power level didn't change, and being that it is mortal ki, Krillin could feel that power level. So Krillin knows how strong Goku was against Beerus, and base Goku vs Freeza was more frightening to Krillin. Quick scale for illustration purposes: Goku: ~SSJG(BoG Arc): 1 ~SSJ1(Post-God Adaptation): 1-ish(it rose by some amount after a while) ~~RoF Arc: ~~Base: >>1 This does not confirm the two base theory because what the two base theory proposes is that Goku and Vegeta have a "mortal" pool and a "god" pool and they mix them together to fluctuate their forms' power levels. Basically it's proposing that if base Goku is 1 and he wants to amp it up, he accessed god ki and "pours" it into his mortal form to raise it. My interpretation is simply one pool of ki for mortal ki. Goku's mortal ki simply rose to reach the initial SSJG power level and later go beyond that. Vegeta helps disprove the two base theory because in order for it to work, Vegeta would need access to God ki to be on par with Goku during Whis' training of them both. You see, if Goku's base form was still somewhere around buu arc levels, when Whis gives Goku and Vegeta the same task in training, and Vegeta was still around Buu arc levels, well Goku could just juice up his base form and absolutely leave Vegeta in the dust. Example, when Whis had Goku and Vegeta carry those heavy weights around Beerus' castle while the floor behind them was disappearing, if Goku and Vegeta were carrying a similar amount of weight, then if Goku had a second pool of ki that was millions of times greater than his normal pool of ki, then he'd just activate that and run laps around Vegeta effortlessly. Vegeta had not even discovered SSJB at this point yet, so he would not have access to God ki. Vegeta had not even felt what God ki feels like until he and Goku were thrown into the pocket time dimension by Whis later on. So if Goku had a second pool of ki that Vegeta did not have access to at that point, then he'd smoke Vegeta in every training session. Vegeta being on par with Goku in their training sessions with whis even before Vegeta himself learned to use God ki is why I think there is only one pool of mortal ki. After BoG, Whis' training brought Goku and Vegeta's mortal ki beyond Goku's initial SSJG from the ritual. After that point, Goku using SSJG became a different beast altogether. This is just one reason why I think the two base theory doesn't work. Whis had to train Vegeta for months to bring him up to Goku's level so that he'd make a good training partner. Goku didn't even recognize Vegeta's ki upon reaching Beerus' castle. Vegeta's ki had risen so much that Goku thought it might be someone else until he took a moment to confirm the ki was Vegeta's. This to me says that all their mortal ki is just one ki pool, otherwise Vegeta wouldn't get that reaction from Goku because he'd have "normal" ki still around Buu arc levels. Additionally, God ki does not equal perfect ki control. Rather, perfect ki control allows someone to gain access to god ki. Example: When Vegeta was thrown into the pocket time dimension that restricted his movements unless he controlled his ki, once Vegeta fully controlled his ki, he THEN started to realize what God ki feels like. Perfect ki control is the method to learn God ki. Simply perfectly controlling ki does not equate god ki. Goku may probably be able to better control his mortal ki after Whis training, but I don't think merely perfectly controlling mortal ki makes it into god ki. I think God ki is like another pool of energy that they tap into when they ascend. To make an analogy, it would be kind of like "raising your consciousness" or "opening your chakras" in forms of eastern meditation, is what using god ki is in my interpretation. If I could make an analogy about God ki, I'd say that SSJG is more akin to a "base" saiyan + God ki. I mean, if SSJB is "A Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" then the logical step to take in scaling is that SSJG is akin to base form with God ki. Edited by Dagon, Jan 7 2018, 12:23 AM.
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| * Yu Narukami | Jan 7 2018, 12:34 AM Post #21 |
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Izanagi!
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But then some mastery of Ki control must carry over to God Ki. Doesn't Goku describe Blue as the form with perfect control when he was talking about why he combined it with Kaioken? Also, for him to suppress down to Krillin's form in Blue, that implies that he has a lot of control by being able to drop it down to an exact point with precision. How does God Ki work separately from Mortal Ki when, presumably, you have to reach a certain level of power in regards to Mortal Ki to even access God Ki? We've seen them mastering Ki control from the Cell Saga with MSSJ, and that's about as far as you can go when it comes to perfect Ki control. Shouldn't they have been feeling God Ki from that point if mastering Ki control is the only requirement for accessing God Ki? Edited by Yu Narukami, Jan 7 2018, 12:37 AM.
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| Dagon | Jan 7 2018, 12:44 AM Post #22 |
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Well, yeah, obviously training to better control ki would have supplementary effects to their other forms, but personally I think it's not to the degree that blue offers. Goku said blue was better suited to kaio-ken because of your example. The mortal SSJ forms would probably benefit to a degree because of Whis' training but they can't have perfect ki control because it taints their mind with anger. I do believe they need to achieve a minimum power level before god ki can be first attained. I think with power level comes a degree of knowledge about ki in general. In my mind Whis knew that they were close enough that his training would let them access god ki at will. And yes, your third point agrees with my point about their mortal ki just being one big pool of ki rather than being amped with hidden auxiliary power. |
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| Saiyan36 | Jan 8 2018, 08:17 PM Post #23 |
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And when was the last time we've seen Goku or Vegeta in base using 'mortal ki beyond the power of SSJG'? Edited by Saiyan36, Jan 8 2018, 09:18 PM.
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| superperfectnerd | Jan 8 2018, 09:46 PM Post #24 |
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Exactly. We aren't all going to agree because I believe that recent feats suggest base god is retconned. Basil brought beyond his limits < Good Boo (completely untrained at Boo saga level) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< god base Goku And yet regular un-enhanced Basil is a concern for base Goku? Can pressure him? Same with Lavender. Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 8 2018, 09:48 PM.
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| StrenuousSpider | Jan 8 2018, 09:51 PM Post #25 |
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I was told constantly that he amped ssj3 every time ive asked about the situation thats what i was told. And no s*** the two are separate ive never once stated that they were the same. So to assume that i think that is completely wrong on your part. All i was getting at was that the two are not drastically different to each other when it comes to things of that suit that things from the manga have appeared in anime and vice versa. More so the later but none the less it happens. I would like you to post a scan of what you say about him going ssj god and not just useing some of its power. |
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